Villagersonline : blogs : Kathryn : respBBlbMz

From: Kathryn
Date: Thu Nov  4 23:46:04 MST 2004
Subject: I have a different take

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GaryG: Morals and such (11/5/04)

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GaryG: Morals and such (11/5/04)

With all due respect, I don't think this election was won just on gay marriage or by pitting evangelicals against homosexuals or vice versa.
Really.
I think it goes a whole lot deeper than that. I think the left in general and the DNC in particular have so thoroughly alienated conservative evangelicals that the dems may not recover.
I think that evangelicals see themselves as arrayed against the whole culture. For example, if you believe in a young earth and are a strict creationist and you see bumper stickers and Darwin fish mocking you it communicates something about how you and your values are viewed. If you try to stand for what you believe is right and you are told it is hate speech and unacceptable but then discover that hate speech directed at you is acceptable, it communicates something about how much you and your values are valued.
I know a lot of Christians voted for Bush because they believe he is a wonderful Godly man, but, really, I don't think it would have mattered one iota who the Republicans ran as long as he communicated that it was acceptable to be a conservative Christian. I think this election was lost by the Democratic Party because of what the Democratic Party stands for in a lot of people's minds - intolerance of conservative Christianity and conservative Christian values.
Further, I think the schism is going to get deeper and wider, not shallower and narrower. I know Gary is deeply committed to the concept of separation of church and state. He's entitled to his opinion, but many Christians don't think he's right and they have some good reasons for thinking that.
The phrase separation cannot be found in the constitution. Thomas Jefferson made the statement about a wall of separation in a letter to the Danbury Baptists and the founder’s intent, as indicated by their writings, was that the first amendment would prevent the establishment of a state church like the Anglican Church in England or the Lutheran church in Norway or the Catholic Church in Spain.
I think there are people who, formerly, might have been willing to live and let live who have been pushed too far over the whole separation issue. The whole Ten Commandments in the courthouse in Mississippi could have been easily dealt with if it had been treated as a tenth amendment issue instead of a first amendment issue. But because it was treated as a first amendment issue it enraged people on both sides and, I think, gave Bush a kick-start.
I think the fact that Daschall lost his seat speaks volumes for the mood of the heartland toward the dems. I think if they don't make some concessions things are going to get mighty ugly.
Unfortunately, if they do make concessions, things are also going to get mighty ugly.

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From: GaryG
Date: Fri Nov  5 09:24:36 MST 2004
Subject: Morals and such

It seems I'm not the only one having problems with responses...I posted a response yesterday that shows only the title, as it seems did others. Hope this shows (unless God is just trying to protect me from myself ;-)
Kathryn, you made some excellent points but I'm afraid I disagree on your main point. Everything I've seen in the post election coverage points out the importance of "moral values" to those voting Bush. I don't have the percentages in front of me, but it was clearly the most important issue for the majority of Bush voters, ahead of terrorism, Iraq, the economy, etc. The anti-gay marriage proposals in the various states served as a huge get out the vote rallying cry, and the people spoke very loudly about how they felt! Here in Massachusetts, the talk is that the state court sealed Kerry's fate by legalizing gay marriage. True? It may or may not be, but it certainly provided fuel for the fire, and was certainly as damaging as all that Swift Boat b.s. So my concern is not that Bush voters value morals, but that they consider me immoral because I am not opposed to gay marriage, at least as far as amending our constitution or passing state laws against it. It is the same mentality that says I am unpatriotic because I do not support the war in Iraq and will not rally around my president over this issue. I read a column from the SF Chronicle that told of the experience of a young Kerry volunteer doing some door knocking who was told by one homeowner "I'm a Republican! Didn't you see my flag?" I could make arguments about the "morality" of using deceit to send young men to war, about the "morality" of 100,000 Iraqis killed, about putting corporate interests before the interests of the people, about the ever widening gap between rich and poor... to me, social justice (I know that's a very broad term) is certainly as important Biblically as personal "morals", and I would argue that it is way more front and center in the message of Christ. What was the real sin of Sodom? Ezekiel 16:49-50 says "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore, I removed them when I saw it."
My thoughts on separation of church and state are not based so much on the Constitution itself (I am aware of the context of Jefferson's remarks), but more on history. Christianity (or any religion) and government is a bad mix, look at Constantine and what happened to Christianity at that point in history. But I would still lean on the First Amendment as "freedom from" as well as "freedom to practice". As far as the Ten Commandment statue controversy, I would just ask what was their real motivation in placing those statues on public property? Defiance? Nose-tweaking? Can't say for sure. But to me, my faith is too important to be legislated, used as a tool for political gain or for intimidation. I know my stands on this issue are considered extreme by the majority of Christians, but I feel it's a voice that needs to be heard-checks and balances, if you will.
Theology and eschatology come in to play here as well, and though I'm not qualified to discuss these subjects in detail, suffice it to say that I believe in a spiritual, not a physical Kingdom, and the efforts of some to make America "God's Kingdom on earth" reveal a different understanding of prophecy and end times than I subscribe to. And that's fine, but when eschatology comes into play in our foreign and domestic policy, well that's pretty frightening to me.
I think it's great that Mr Bush is a believer, but is he more "moral" than Mr Kerry? I see way, way more verses in the Bible about the sin of pride than I do about homosexuality or any sexual sin, and isn't Bush's refusal to admit mistakes and to listen to those who oppose him a sign of pride? So again, it comes down to what you value as "moral".
Ryan, thanks for your remarks. I know I am struggling very deeply with my own sin here, and perhaps this lengthy blog is only serving to further that. I guess I have to go back to my original intent, and that is to express my feelings of alienation over all this. I know my views are as flawed as the "other side" is, and perhaps this blog only further exposes my own error-I just don't know. Yes, we need healing in this country, and that will take a lot of humility from both sides of the aisle, from both the red and blue states, for this to happen. And I guess it has to start with the individuals...I know I need to offer respect if I'm going to receive any. Please pray for me...

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