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This is a response to this blog: http://www.villagersonline.com/users/russ/blogs/The Fall (or not?)


From: Karen
Date: Fri Oct 1 16:37:23 MST 2004 Subject: Innocence

Responses
russ: Chosen Naivete (10/2/04)
keibru: Easy as 1-2-3 (10/7/04)
benjipark: heads shall roll!!! (10/7/04)
Karen: Paradoxes (10/7/04)
emily: beautiful piece of thinking (10/8/04)
russ: What it... (10/10/04)
emily: choice (10/18/04)
jfpark: Inevitable (10/19/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
jfpark: Inevitable (10/19/04)
emily: choice (10/18/04)
russ: What it... (10/10/04)
emily: beautiful piece of thinking (10/8/04)
Karen: Paradoxes (10/7/04)
benjipark: heads shall roll!!! (10/7/04)
keibru: Easy as 1-2-3 (10/7/04)
russ: Chosen Naivete (10/2/04)
Hey Patricia (and others), I believe that innocence can be/has been/is being/will be restored. I will argue this as the word nerd that I am, with references to the Webster's in my classroom & a few general references to the Holy Writ :-)

Innocent comes from the Latin word "innocens," which literally means not doing wrong/harm/injury to. Yeah, the handy-dandy Webster's tells me that nocens is actually a present participle form; it doesn't mean not having done wrong, but rather, means not *presently* doing wrong.

Nocens comes from the Latin verb "nocere," to harm, related to the word "necare," to kill, which itself came from a prehistoric word for dead body. So innocence, literally, at its very word-core, is referring to the opposite of what brings death.

In that sense, it's all too obvious that we humans lost our innocence somewhere along the way (whether before or "at" the Fall). Yes, so many of our actions have been injury-producing, death-producing. Yes, Russ, there were injury & death to relationships w/God and w/others (and even relationship "with oneself," if you'll excuse the expression), as well as injury and death to the physical body.

I think all those mystical references in the Gospels to life, especially the dozens of references in John, are referring (at least in great part) to the supernatural restoration of our innocence. Our spirits are being restored, we are being recreated so that we will no longer do wrong, no longer harm or injure God/others/self. We are not patched up, damaged goods, but "new creations" (as Paul described us in 2 Corinthians 5 and Galatians 6).

Think about John 10: "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." The Enemy still wants to come after our innocence, without which there can be no true joy. How could a self-aware injury-producer, death-producer experience true joy?? Yes, Russ, for such a "miserable creature" death would be a relief. But there's another answer that came through the new Adam, Christ, through his embodiment, crucifixion, & resurrection.

The damaged-goods relationship is the one we had with God pre-Christ. (Maybe even pre-Fall, as Russ argues.) Our ability to walk in grace may mean our willingness to choose to accept our new-found innocence in Him; without acceptance of this grace, we shrink back from God, missing the point...? Hmm. The Calvinists might say that God gives us the grace to accept his grace, or something like that, right? (Hey, Rod, are you out there? ;-))

As for "like a child"...I think Jesus was referring not to the "innocence" but to the low-status, relatively powerless & dependent nature of children. The I-wanna-work-to-earn-back-my-place-with-God folks are being so reasonable & so "grown up" about it, but it just won't fly. It can't. The problem is too serious, in a too difficult place for us to reach, like trying to operate on your own brain tumor.

I'm begging you, accept God's amazing offer: reclaim your innocence, people!!

And on that thought, I'll yield the floor to someone else. Any takers?

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From: russ
Date: Sat Oct 2 12:18:25 MST 2004 Subject: Chosen Naivete

Pat pointed out that children are ignorant. They don't understand the realities of life. As we grow older, we start to get more experiences and many of those experiences are painful.

We are no longer naive. We no longer believe the simple, idealistic things that we used to believe. We have been hurt, and so we know that people have the chance to hurt us. We know that our closest loved ones have the most powerful chance to betray us. We know that their love is faulty, faithless, and selfish.

At some point, we look up in the sky and connect our pain with God. If God is truly so very powerful, then why does he let this happen? Why hasn't he punished the people who sinned against us? Why did he give use the chance for evil in the first place? Is he, himself, evil? Or has he lied to us about how powerful he is?

We can't approach God that way. We can't love Him the way that He wants us to. We can't trust Him. We can't submit to His will. In the end, we can't really worship Him because we don't believe that he really loves us.

Yet, what I've seen in the great, old Christians that I have met is that they don't seem to understand those complexities. They don't have this complex, realistic understanding of the world. They just trust God, and that's it.

I used to think that they were foolish. But I've come to realize now that they're not. They were realistic and hurt in their past as well. But now they are different. I think that that's because they have come to an experience or knowledge of God which trumps the more obvious "realities" of this world.

We have to choose naivete. We have to look at God, and choose that the reality of Him is far more important than the realities of this world. Our true context is not the apparent context of the fallen world. Our true context is God. God loves us, and that determines our entire reality.

I don't think that that chosen naivete is really a bad thing. I'm not talking about forgetting about the painful realities. And, in truth, I'm not really talking about being naive. But we have to choose to say that this world is not nearly so important as we think it is. To do so, we must go through a time where we seem to be doing something incredibly foolish. We have to put ourselves in a position where we feel stupid and scared. But I believe that on the other side of things, we will find that our choice was right. The world is not the point; God is the point.

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From: keibru
Date: Wed Oct 6 21:59:06 MST 2004 Subject: Easy as 1-2-3

I shall, with a flick, clarify and admonish:

#1 Russ: the whole idea of Adam's status before or after "the fall" boils down to semantics. You get to the same place no matter how you got there. Why do you have to mess with age old stuff like that?

#2 Karen: no, you can't regain lost innocence b/c history is history and it does stuff to you that cannot be organically undone. You can, however, have your sinfulness redeemed so that your status before God is "clean". They're not the same thing.

#3 Eric: why haven't you said something to Russ about his epic entries to this website? Something must be done.

K

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From: benjipark
Date: Wed Oct 6 23:57:19 MST 2004 Subject: heads shall roll!!!

I think it's an outrage! much to much thinking. Church members should walk in a straight line, always keep their shoes tied and be mostly brainless.

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From: Karen
Date: Thu Oct 7 14:34:43 MST 2004 Subject: Paradoxes

Revelations 21
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Passages like this in the Bible make me question the spiritual-level accuracy of what you said, Keith :-) Yes, I know that what you said MAKES SENSE, is borne out by our EARTHLY EXPERIENCE; it is a very rational approach to the redemptive process. But I don't believe that the redemptive process, as revealed to us in the New Testament (or heck, even the OT) is completely rational. While the past obviously cannot be "undone," while it's obvious that many consequences of one's sin and other's sin(at least on this Earth, for this lifetime) must simply continue to be borne, I believe grace working on, in, and through us will in fact, quite literally, recreate us. I don't understand this as a succint event, but as a long, convoluted, paradoxical process, one that will not be completed until some point later on, but one that I can choose to accept and move into now. Can we fully reclaim our lost innocence in this lifetime? No. Can we start to move into that? Yes. Will we "get there" eventually? Definitely yes. Our lost glory will be fully restored. I believe that's a big part of the Good News. Sure, it sounds nutty...that's why most people don't accept it :-) But referring back to what Russ originally said, I personally don't want to live the next 1,000 years dragging my sin baggage, schlepping the tragic loss of my innocence behind me. Much less the next 10,000 years!

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From: emily
Date: Fri Oct 8 18:34:14 MST 2004 Subject: beautiful piece of thinking

Well Russ, your amazing piece of thinking brought tears of naive joy to my jaded eyes. I have been wrestling for a long time with the traditional views of "the fall" and "sin" and "redemption". Most of the time those words just blow around my soul like dry, dead leaves in a hot wind that howls "meaningless! meaningless!" And I have to shut it out in order to hug my sweet kids and show them that life is worth living and God is worth knowing.

I have many more thoughts on specific points of your essay but for now I will just say that it is the most beautiful rendition of the history between God and humanity that I have ever heard.

EMC

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From: russ
Date: Sun Oct 10 08:31:29 MST 2004 Subject: What it...

When we get to Heaven, we're pretty sure that we won't have any trouble with sin anymore. It's possible that this means that we are changed somehow where we can't sin anymore, or perhaps that we are given a nature which is able to reliably choose the right path.

Another possibility, one that is less comfortable to me, that we loose the capacity to choose sin. What if the whole point of this enterprise is to generate a group of people who have experienced what choice (total freedom) is about, and have decided that it isn't such a good thing after all?

That sort of lines up with the comparison of the time of the Judges ("in those days there was no king, every man did as he saw fit") with the kingdom. At least in the history of Israel, it seems like the kingdom is set up as a solution to the problem of chaos and sin. A king, at least a Godly king given in a Godly timeframe, was supposed to lead Israel to a better, more righteous future.

Of course, no sinful man can be a reliable leader; perhaps that's part of the plan. We have come to understand the fact that people are not reliable, and that our loss of freedom is dangerous. Thus, in this world, we keep fighting to defend our freedom from those who might betray us. Perhaps the whole point is for us to come to trust God so implicitly that we totally surrender the power to defend ourselves in this way, and we give up choice to somebody we trust.

Then again, maybe not.

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From: emily
Date: Mon Oct 18 16:11:15 MST 2004 Subject: choice

Hmmm....choice...choice...what is so great about choice? I suppose it could be true that God's idea for humanity is that we taste choice and then renounce it. And I suppose if we think that God "cannot" sin then there must be some worthwhile state that includes "not being able to sin". But we usually tend to shy away from the idea that God is unable to "sin". It doesn't seem right that He is "unable" to do anything. We tend to want to explain it by saying that He really, really, really, really WON'T!!!

If rennouncing the ability to sin is where we're headed then I think we've got some wrong ideas about "growth". In general it is considered more a "immature" stage of growth that just takes away the possibility for not doing what you don't want to do. So cloistering yourself away or whatever form that takes is not as impressive as habitually choosing "right".

And it seems that many miserable souls would be overjoyed to take the "I can't sin anymore" drug. If the only choice involved is "will I give up my freedom of choice" then I have a long life to live ahead of me that feels like a waste! If I am ready to give up my choice then why wait? There is no point to my "perseverence". Struggling against the inclination to sin is a useless task appointed for our life on the planet. Perhaps giving long life to the righteous not as great a blessing as its touted to be?

I prefer to think that there is something important about having choice and choosing God. I believe that heaven will be a wonderful place for us, prepared by a God who knows us intimately. And above all, God wants us to exist in a love relationship with Him. How do you feel about love without choice?

EMC

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From: jfpark
Date: Tue Oct 19 01:34:49 MST 2004 Subject: Inevitable

Emily alerted me to this discussion going on about the Fall. I can't resist putting in my 2 cents worth.

In my view, Adam was not so much sinful before the Fall as immature. Perhaps "childish" would describe it better. True, he hadn't sinned and he was innocent. But, he hadn't succeeded in resisting sin either. The ability to resist sin seems to me to be a necessary component of life in eternity. Satan was made a perfect being (we presume) but he turned against God and took many others down with him. So what is to prevent any being made in God's image from doing the same?

So God creates Adam innocent and childlike, knowing that he will inevitably fall. Was the Fall a great catastrophe? In one way, yes. But it was anticipated by God. A verse in the NT tells us that God's plan of saving men was conceived before the creation of the world. God knew that his children would put their hands on the hot stove. And he planned for the healing, the cure. I will go so far as to say that God knew that all of us would be like sheep and go astray. The pre-Fall innocence was not the kind that could deliberately fend off temptation, and choose to do the right thing.

I agree with the various thoughts expressed that it's all about relationship. God wants his children to love and trust him. But it seems to me there is no way to create full-blown, mature love and trust. Brand new beings have to learn to trust. Before they learn to trust, there will be inevitable episodes of lack of trust.

I guess what I'm saying is that the only way to learn what we need to learn about love and relationship is to learn it the hard way. Jesus commented of one woman in the NT that she loved much because she had been forgiven much. Certainly people do vary greatly in how much wrong they have to do before they catch on. And I'm not saying there is any excuse for the person who just tries to see how much wrong he or she can get away with.

C.S. Lewis in his book, "Mere Christianity" has a whole section he entitles "Beyond Personality". In the first part of that section he has a chapter on "Making and Begetting". He says that Jesus was begotten by God and therefore had the very nature of God. Adam was created like God, but not identical in nature. He says Adam and Eve were like statues or pictures of God. They had biological life, but not God's spiritual life. "A man who changed from having Bios (biological life) to having Zoe (spiritual life) would have gone through as big a change as a statue which changed from being a carved stone to being a real man. And that is precisely what Christianity is about. This world is a great sculptor's shop. We are the statues and there is a rumor going round the shop that some of us are some day going to come to life." (p. 140 Mere Christianity)

I agree with you Russ that the Fall was a predictable part of the plan, perhaps inevitable. Stone men have to fall and break into pieces before they can be restored as spiritual men. In some sense we all go through it. Could some men and women have avoided the Fall and gone on to be perfect beings? Maybe, but we know nothing about them.

Jim..

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